#1 Predictor of Weight Loss Success with Dr. John Berardi

JONATHAN: Hey everyone, Jonathan Bailor back and I am pumped. We’re recording this at 7:00 a.m. in the morning my time, but as you can see, with just a little bit of green tea, I was able to get really excited about today’s show, which is easy because during our time together here, we’ve been talking about how over the last 50 years, just like in every other area of our life there’s been dramatic scientific and technological advances, but in the fields of eating and exercise, for some reason, we still continue to get told the same information that we were 50 years ago, which seems a little odd, because certainly researchers haven’t been just sitting on our hands for the last 50 years in those arenas.

When thinking about people who are doing research and not only doing the research, but helping to get it out to people and helping people to understand even though it might be counter-intuitive and actually break your mind a little bit, John Berardi over at Precision Nutrition has literally been teaching and helping over 200, 000 people. He’s actually the founder of the largest online personal coaching program in the world. His company has actually helped people lose more fat than every single participant on every single season of the Biggest Loser combined. He’s a brilliant PHD, it’s all science based, in fact, a lot of people call his organization the largest private research company in the world.

The reason I wanted to bring Dr. John Berardi on the show was because if there’s anyone who can help us first understand what these advancements have been, but then second and almost more importantly, to really allow ourselves to believe them and try them and then enjoy the results, John is that man. So, Dr. John Berardi welcome, brother.

JOHN: Thanks. Thanks so much for having me. This is great. I love the opportunity to share and to talk about all this stuff that gets me up and excited every day.

JONATHAN: Well, John, thank you so much for joining us and you – like I said are in a very unique position to talk to this subject because not only do you teach the modern science of eating and exercise, but you also create it – in many ways, so can you give us a bit of background on your organization, Precision Nutrition, first –

JONATHAN: Sure.

JONATHAN: About the sort of research aspects and then the practical coaching aspects.

JOHN: Yeah, essentially at Precision Nutrition we do three things. One is the heart and soul of what we do, which is coaching, so we actually work with people who are interested in losing fat, gaining muscle, improving their health, improving their blood profiles, getting off medications, so if you’ve ever thought well, I bet I could use nutrition and exercise to help me with X – that’s what we help with. We help people sort of live better lives and feel better through exercise, nutrition, and everything that surrounds that and so that’s the heart of what we do. It’s coaching. We work with people online and we do work with some people in person, but far and away online is our biggest group of clients and then from that we actually use the work that we do together as research to create new knowledge if you want to call it that.

The funny thing about sort of living in the past 50 years of nutrition advice is that scientific studies while they continue to march on and advance sometimes can be very sort of separate and divorced from what people actually do, like real human beings do in real life, not in a lab in a tightly controlled setting, but how they live and how they want to live and so what we’re doing is, we actually have this unique opportunity to work with so many people and we do it on the web, which is really key because through the web you can collect all kinds of data, metrics, numbers, you can see how often people interact with a coach, that’s an important metric. You can see the things that they’re doing. We can upload photographs we can do all that kind of stuff and on the back end run these great analyses so we’re actually doing research. What type of diet is more effective than another type? Is there a particular habit that someone would have never considered as being important, that sort of emerges as the most important predictor of weight loss or health outcome, so through that process we have millions of data points. We do analyses to determine what is the state of the art? What can we use predictably and reliably to help people get the type of result they’re after and then the next part of what we do, which is the third part is we actually teach that to health and fitness professionals. So we have certification programs or health and fitness pros come to learn how we coach and then we share all that research that we do with those so that they can be better in their own practice and quite fundamentally most of the people come to us are really passionate about helping people change lives and that’s what we help them do. So, that’s pretty much what we’re up to at PN.

JONATHAN: John, that is exciting for many, many reasons, maybe one of the non-obvious ones that I want to highlight for our viewers is this data you’re collecting, the analysis on it that you’re doing, the only interest there is helping people. You are doing that data analysis on the concrete objective of saying how can we develop recommendations which are more effective and while that’s like oh, well, of course, why would anyone else collect data? You and I both know that there are studies and research done that have many more objectives or are funded by many other people than those who care about finding approaches that actually help people live healthier and fitter lives.

JOHN: Yeah, and you bring up such an important point and this is actually the way we visualize it. Imagine that circle — that reuse and recycle circle, right? So, you use something and you recycle it, reuse — well, we actually envision what we do is that, right? So, we basically coach people and in the process of coaching people we learn stuff. And then we take that stuff that we learn and we teach it to professionals who can go out and coach people.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: And then what they learn they bring back and that’s what we learn and so it’s this cycle of knowledge that we’re getting better all the time by working with people. And then by sharing what we learn, we help the next round of people even more so it becomes this sort of upward spiral of knowledge and just basically help. We can continue to refine our methods, and that’s the cool part, with our online coaching for example, every round learns from the last round.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: So, we literally, every new program is changed based on what we’ve learned from the last time, so it becomes this continual iterative process of doing a better job and while it might seem strange to say this, the field has never operated this way. For people watching and listening in, the field has never operated in this way because there’s never been an opportunity to collect enough data. It’s just been a group of passionate caring trainers who may only be exposed to 50 or 100 people every year.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: And that’s not enough information and exposure to body types and exposure to physiology types to be able to really learn so you end up getting a hunch for what works –

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: But, you never really know what works and you don’t have a system for reapplying it, so that’s what I think we do better than anyone else and it’s something that gets me very excited obviously.

JONATHAN: Dr. John, what are some of those things you’ve seen which maybe even as a PHD, you had certainly some thoughts on the way things should work based on what you learned in textbooks and through research papers. Was there anything your data revealed where you were just like, wait a second, but no, it continued to bear itself out over and over again in the real world?

JOHN: Absolutely. I have a couple of lessons that I think are really important. One has to do with the food you eat, and one doesn’t, right? The one that doesn’t have to do with food you eat is this, when we looked at the biggest predictor of success in our coaching programs as defined by weight loss, changes in health parameters, and positive feelings about the program, right, so someone would actually recommend it to someone else, to a loved one, a family member, whatever the case may be, the biggest predictor wasn’t what type of diet they followed while they were on it, it wasn’t even how much weight they lost. It was actually forging a personal connection with their coach. The people who forged the strongest personal connection was a real human being actually had the best results and this is foreign to the fitness industry, but it’s completely normal and accepted in the counseling industry, so if you look at counseling and therapy the greatest predictor of success through whether it’s psychotherapy or change psychology or positive psychology, the greatest predictor is actually forming a bond with your counselor. It doesn’t matter what technique they use –

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: It doesn’t matter how bad your history was or your current mindset –

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JONATHAN: It’s – did I form of real relationship with someone. I encourage everyone who’s listening in to this, yourself included, to think about all the times where you’ve made transformative change in your life and when you think about that, the important question to ask is, did I do that be reading a book, or visiting a website? Maybe that kicked off some kind of process for you – maybe a seminar or whatever. I would imagine though, and I’ve seen this so reliably that real transformative change in your life came from a mentorship or a coaching type of experience. Some real relationship kicked off the process for you and it’s certainly been true in my life.

Mentorship and coaching has meant the difference and has meant the world to me. It’s made the biggest difference in everything I’ve ever wanted to do. Now, I read tons of books, attend tons of seminars and that sort of a thing, so I’m not saying they’re not important, but real change, transformative change comes from finding a mentor or a coach and creating a real relationship with them. So, that’s the number one thing we saw and again, that has nothing to do with the food, but it has everything to do with your results.

So, I found that particularly interesting and it’s particularly insightful of an observation when you consider how nutrition for example, is done nowadays, which is you buy a book and you read it, or someone, even if you hire a coach, they just hand you a diet plan, right? That’s what most clients come to us asking for and to be quite honest, they’re mad when you don’t do it. Where’s my diet? I want you to write something up that tells me exactly what to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner, what snacks in between and maybe even give me a list of what I should not be eating. So, tell me this and hand that to me, I’ll give you $200.00 and we’ll shake hands and go our separate ways and that’s how people expect nutrition to work nowadays and it doesn’t work that way. That is the number one predictor of failure in a nutrition program.

So that’s the first part and I think there’s a lot to think about there and so as people are watching or listening in, I encourage them to stick with that and think about that idea. If transformative change really comes through forging a personal relationship with another human being, whether it’s in person or distance based, on the phone, through the web, and they’ve seen that happen in their lives repeatedly, how can they apply that to this aspect of their life, finally? Right? How can you take that and say alright, well, then how do I get that kind of coaching and mentorship in nutrition and fitness, if that’s what they feel like they need to work on now. So that’s the first piece of learning that I found extremely useful and we only see it when we see thousands and thousands of clients.

JONATHAN: And John, real quick before we get into that second piece, just to help our viewers take action on this mentorship coaching, bonding tip, which is brilliant. Do you see this as so there’s someone who can serve more as a mentor, a coach, or a teacher, so in this model it’s someone who knows information. Is it as helpful or even approaching as helpful if you were to just have a peer, say your next door neighbor who may not be any more informed than you, but is as committed as you or is it like is the importance another committed person or a knowledgeable committed other person?

JOHN: That is a fantastic question and that’s actually separate domain that we test, which is called social support, which you’ve talked about and are very familiar with. So, it’s different actually.

Coaching and mentorship to me is very different than social support. Both are useful. The biggest predictor of success is coaching and mentorship and the reason is when you are trying to change transformatively, you will hit little roadblocks all along the way — hundreds of them, thousands of them. If you have a knowledgeable person to turn to and they don’t have to be the world’s leading expert, they can just be a little bit further down the path than you.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: They can help you circumnavigate those little challenges on a daily basis and for a lot of people, those challenges are what make them fall off the wagon. They’re doing great, they face an unexpected challenge. It could be something as simple as this coming weekend is our Canadian Thanksgiving. So, Thanksgiving comes, they have a really rough eating experience over Thanksgiving and that knocks them off the wagon, right? And then they don’t know how to get back on the wagon so an expert voice to help say, oh, no, no, it actually you’re making this more difficult than it needs to be. All you need to do next is this and they’re like oh, why didn’t I think of that.

JONATHAN: Yep.

JOHN: Well, you didn’t think of it because you’ve never been down this road before, so someone just has to be a little further down the path than you. What you brought up, social support is actually also important. Right? Having like- minded people around you to just high-five each other, to share in successes, and to sort of help with motivation when you might not be feeling it on a given day is really, really important, however, it can replace mentorship which is that idea of someone who’s just a little further down the path who can say, oh, I’ve been through this before myself, here is how you deal with that and you go, ah, I was making this way harder than it needed to be. Okay, this isn’t that stressful at all.

JONATHAN: John, I love this and I want to get your opinion here on the maybe the dark side of mentorship if there is one, because I’ve observed two things. One is — I’ll do one specific to men and one specific to women and I want to get your take.

So, men is probably the most conspicuous. So a guy goes into the gym, finds someone who looks like he wants to look, and says, hey, brother, what did you do to get those big arms and just tries, not knowing that that guy is taking steroids and maybe he’s genetically gifted and he could just sleep all day and eat candy canes and he’d have big arms, and then also for the females.

Maybe you have a woman who has a fundamentally different body type and she runs marathons because she’s always been a cross country runner and she enjoys it and it’s fun and she happens to also be slender, so then a female sees that and says, okay, well, the key to long term fat loss is to eat as little as she does and to run as much as she does, but that might not be the right way to approach mentorship.

JOHN: Yes, thanks for bringing that up. It’s really important because you have to think of mentorship like hiring a CEO for your company or something like that. You have to do some interviews, right?

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: You can’t just find some random person and go ah, yeah, you look like you might be good, know what I mean? You drive a nice car, you must be very successful. I’d like to mentor with you, right?

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: So, I mean if – this is the mentality that you have to go into this with. If mentorship is the number one greatest predictor of your success then you should spend some time finding the right mentor.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: Right? So, then you should figure out if this person has the same values as you. You should figure out if this person has a similar lifestyle and how they achieved their success and I don’t want to make this too sort of ominous a thing, right, but again, like you said, rather than just walking up to the dude at the gym and saying hey, bro, would you like to mentor me kind of thing, there might be some other criteria that you might want to apply to this search, because the job to be done here is finding someone who can help you.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: Along the path. Your responsibility then is actually figuring out if someone’s in a position to be able to help.

JONATHAN: Yep. And are there other tips, John, we could look to so you made a key point there which was someone who was in a position to help you out versus someone who was in a position to help themselves out based upon your ignorance. So are there some red flags we could look out for where if you know this person seems to be great — they’re charismatic, they seem like they know what they’re talking about, they’re using big words, but then they did this, this and this, okay, hold on a second –

JOHN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I am obviously a big fan of the personal training field. We work with thousands of committed, intelligent, caring fitness professionals every single day. In fact, in the last three years, we’ve certified over 15,000 of them. So, around the world, over 100 countries. With that said, there’s a lot of personal trainers who aren’t very good either. So if that’s your first thought, oh, I’m going to just find a personal trainer at my local gym, that could be a hit or miss proposition. Right? I mean often personal trainers are quite young, they love fitness and physical activity. That’s why they went into this in the first place and like you said, they may have looked that good regardless of what they did, right? If that’s not your scenario, it’s kind of a weird situation, isn’t it?

I mean actually one of the women on our team actually wrote an article and in that article it was kind of controversial. She suggested that personal trainersmay not be the best people to help out beginning fitness enthusiasts. And personal trainers say, well, what if not us, who, right? But, her point was that most personal trainers end up in personal training because they love exercise themselves. The average person who has a lot of weight to lose or has never exercised in their adult life, is probably the opposite. Some people don’t love exercise, not yet, anyway. So, pairing these two people up is a weird match, isn’t it?

JONATHAN: Yep.

JOHN: So, that’s one red flag. If a person assumes that you should just love healthy eating and exercise as much as they do, if they assume that you should just be able to do exactly what they do on Day One, these are some red flags. I mean it’s a sign of inexperience because let’s say you’re a 30 year old personal trainer, okay, and you’ve been working out since you were 15, and trying to eat well, you have 15 years of experience. A new client may have 15 minutes of experience, right? So, to suggest that it’s really easy to just grocery shop this way, eat this way, commit to this much exerciseon Day One, is a red flag. This person doesn’t understand the change process, which is often slow and it’s not linear. It comes a little bit and then you go backwards. And so, the progress chart for a new person in fitness is kind of like, loop-ti-loo and it’s like whoo-straight, right? So it’s a red flag when you find someone who expects you to give up the other things that make you who you are, to compromise their values and things that are important in your life and to assume, which a lot of the fitness industry pushes this on people that getting fit and healthy means having to create a massive lifestyle change and when they say things like, well, you’ve got to want it badly enough – you gotta put in the work if you want the results – that’s like old boot camp style coach and whistle stuff –

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: That’s a red flag. That’s a big red flag. To get on a body building stage that takes a super human level of commitment. To lose 20 lbs. and get your cholesterol down, that’s actually not that hard and it shouldn’t compromise your time spent with family and your commitment to work, your commitment to other hobbies and activities that you love and enjoy and your personal sense of integrity. If someone asks you to give up any of that stuff to get more fit, they don’t understand what they’re doing.

JONATHAN: I love this concept. I know you talk about smallest change possible to get the biggest results possible and is this another red flag?

I often times when I’m at the gym, I will see an individual who is clearly just getting started on their journey with a trainer and the trainer has them standing on one leg, on a balance thing with some fancy other device in their other hand and they’re like – it looks like they’re in some sort of Dr. Seuss book and so it seems like that’s something I would expect someone who’s going to get on the fitness stage to be doing – not someone who has a 100 lbs. to lose and I wonder if sometimes people may overcomplicate things to sort of prove how much they’re needed. Like look this is so complicated that you better keep hiring me because clearly you couldn’t figure this out for yourself. Have you seen that and is that another red flag?

JOHN: Yeah, absolutely it is. I think I always want to give human beings the benefit of the doubt. I don’t ever want to feel like someone is purposely deceptive or driving so hard that self-interested proposition that they’re actually willing to throw the people who are putting their trust in them under the bus. So, with personal trainers doing the crazy standing on the ball thing – for me sometimes I just like to think that they attend way too many seminars on working out and way to few seminars on human psychology and change, right? Because you’re not – I’ve never met a client who’s come up to me and said — grab you by the shoulders, and say, Dr. Berardi, I want to squat more, you need to teach me to squat more and better because I love squatting. Who does that, right? They say, you know what, I feel a little bit sad because when I go to pick up my grandchildren, my knees hurt really badly and I look in the mirror and I’m at least 50 lbs. overweight. These are the types of things people are saying. I want to feel better and I don’t know how to do it on my own because if I did, I would have done it already.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: So, this is actually a change process that has to take place. It’s human-to- human. If I was your client, John, you would need to connect with me on a human level, not on a biochemical level, not on anexercise physiology muscle physiology level. So, you would need to take some education on how to connect with humans on that level –

JONATHAN: Yep –

JOHN: And help them through a change process, so I’m not saying personal trainers shouldn’t take exercise seminars, but I think if that’s all you take and every year you go to three, four, five exercise seminars and that’s your continuing education, of course, you’re going to be doing a bunch of weird and strange exercises that seem cutting edge. Of course you are. It’s because that’s all you’re training into your mind, new exercise selections, but you’re not training nutrition coaching, you’re not training, human interaction, you’re not training coaching, you’re just training exercise demonstration and prescription right — and so that is a red flag.

If your trainer seems like they attended lots of seminars and stuff like that or the trainer you’re investigating, ask them what kind of seminars they’re going to. Are they learning to help you as a human being or are they just learning how to make you jump around and sweat harder because that’s not what I want from a mentor.

JONATHAN: Dr. Berardi, this is so helpful. We’re just kind of staying on this path because I think this is incredibly valuable for people and I just want to continue to empower them because I think as people hear this and they say, well, maybe they go into their office and they say, I’m going to ask around to see if people have mentors and organizations they are working with that have helped them and certainly here in the states, a very popular and at least very good at connecting people and making people feel energized and passionate is the CrossFit community. If anything, regardless of one’s beliefs or thoughts about the efficacy of the actual program, almost everyone I’ve ever met who does Crossfit has almost a visceral — like heart based love for the pod or whatever you call it that they do it and their coach and their mentor. So, for individuals who may just turn immediately to that, as wow, that seems to build that community and that sense of camaraderie. What should look for or not look for if we choose that route?

JOHN: Yeah, that’s a very insightful comment about CrossFit and I’ll show my cards here so everyone kind of knows where I’m at on the CrossFit situation.

I actually think CrossFit is the first organization to nail the community piece – to nail that piece where you plug into another group of passionate people and you work out together and it becomes fun. I think in particular they nailed it for men because if you’ve ever played sports, when you stop playing sports at a certain age, your competitive drive doesn’t go away – you just don’t know where to put it anymore. Right? And so men take it over to work, right and sometimes they’re not even healthy competitions with their peers at work, right? Sometimes they’re sort of relationship degrading types of experiences. So, it’s misplaced competition.

So I think CrossFit gave guys in particular a place to exercise that competitive sort of spirit and I don’t want to leave the girls out here though, because there’s women with a lot of competitive spirit as well and they don’t have a place for it. In some cases, women have never been given a place for it.

So, I think CrossFit has nailed that and I was so interested in this model and learning about CrossFit that I actually went through a couple of levels of their certification. Now, I don’t coach exercise on a regular basis or anything like that, but everyone has an opinion on CrossFit, but very few even know what it is. Right? Their only experience is reading about it on the Internet. I actually wanted to learn what it was, so I signed myself up and I took their certifications, I did their certification for adults, I did their certification for kids. I wanted to know. I wanted to be able to speak intelligently about this and this is actually a great tip, as like a side note — that I learned from a mentor of mine, which was — you can’t talk about anything until you’ve at least experienced it. I mean you can, but you shouldn’t — so, oh, that particular restaurant in town. I hear it’s X, Y, and Z. Right? Have you ever been? No. Well, then stop talking about it. CrossFit, I hear it’s this, oh, have you ever gone to a facility? No. Okay, then stop. Alright?

So, anyway, I have a home gym, so I work out at home. I’ve been to a few CrossFit facilities to work out, but I wanted to know more about them. I think they do that particularly well. I think what can be hit or miss with CrossFit, just like any other fitness program on the entire planet is if there aren’t great coaches who have experience with beginning exercisers, you have this scenario I talked about earlier, which is the person who’s always loved exercise, the person who’s like 15 years further down their path than you, who’s running the CrossFit facility, and expecting you to just hurry up and catch up, right? I know you just started, but you’ve got 15 years of making up to do, so let’s get that (Inaudible 00:30:20). So in that type of scenario, you’re rushing too fast into something that you’re ill equipped to do, psychologically and physiologically, injuries are likely. Again, this isn’t aCrossFitphenomenon this isn’t an exercise phenomenon. This is a bad coaching phenomenon. And so because CrossFit doesn’t ensure that every single coach at every single facility is of the highest level, they’re just like every other exercise facility in the world. You can get a situation where you’re doing highly intense exercise with a person who isn’t quite prepared to do that type of exercise, who doesn’t quite know what their limits are and they’re in a community that’s pushing the boundary always. Come on, one more, five more minutes, right? That’s what CrossFit sort of endorses, which is great if you’re prepared and capable. If you’re not, things break.

So, if someone does go to CrossFit, the community is awesome. The movements and the type of exercise – it’s awesome. You just have to define your limits and then when you’re there, act with integrity and in this sense, by integrity, I mean stick to your limits. You don’t be afraid to say, well, that’s enough for me today. And stop there. I think that’s good advice for CrossFit or anywhere else.

JONATHAN: Dr. Berardi, this really helps to drive home the point you made earlier about imagine this was — you’re hiring a CEO for your health, because it sounds like what people may have heard is getting a coach is the single most important thing you can do to predict your long term success, but what people may be should be hearing is getting the right coach is extremely important because your coach is going to be one of the single biggest determents of your success or failure, right? It’s sort of the biggest switch you have so if we get it wrong or don’t take it seriously or approach it from a – oh, that person just looks good, so I’ll do what they do, then that which could be so good becomes so bad.

JOHN: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. That’s such an important point and I’m glad we are talking about it because throughout our conversation I feel there’s been lots of great insights come from it, but yeah, I think people who are watching and listening in that is the key point. Who will you trust your health with? Who will you trust your joints with? Who will you trust your future with, right, because that’s what at stake here, I mean, not to make it too overwhelming or scary, but we don’t do this, just because it’s incredibly awesome to do, although exercise and eating well is. We do this because we are actually also trying to invest in our future, right? So, where are you going to put your investment is the question, spend a little time thinking about that. Now, obviously like at PN we have a group of coaches and we offer this type of thing, but whether you’re interested in working with us or not is irrelevant. Spend the time to figure out who’s worth working with.

JONATHAN: Brilliant. Well, Dr. Berardi, this – I don’t know how we could develop any more material that is any more immediately actionable and helpful than what we’ve done here so thank you so much as always for dropping these truth bombs and what’s next for you and Precision Nutrition?

JOHN: We just want to continue doing what we do right now. I mean we – feel like we’ve created probably the world’s best sort of coaching and research intervention in this particular area in transformative change for the body, and we just want more people to know about it. That’s the bottom line. There’s a lot of people out there who are in pain who are looking for help and to be quite honest, if they don’t find people like us, I’m a little bit scared about what they will find, which is exactly what we’ve been talking about the whole time, right?

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: If they’re not finding – this isn’t just about growing our business. This is about displacing some of the people that they should not be finding.

JONATHAN: Yeah.

JOHN: So, if you’re out there looking for help, there are great resources for that, but there’s also some bad ones. So, at PN we just want to continue to spread the word to let people know about what we’re doing and so that people end up finding people like us rather than some of the people who aren’t going to take their clients, the people who entrust their health to them as seriously as it ought to be taken.

JONATHAN: Dr. Berardi, to me there maybe a third R here, but there is at least two R’s that it seems like our viewers should keep in the back of their heads and that’s research and results and the reason I say research is you can get results by chopping your leg off and you’ll weigh less, right? So, you can’t just look at results, you can’t just say, well, have they had people lose weight. People on the Biggest Loser do lose weight, but you can also address your fever by getting in an ice bath. It doesn’t solve the problem, it just masks the symptoms. So, we have to have research, then we also have to have results. You can have all the research in the world, but if it doesn’t bear out long term results, no. So, when you look for any coach, at least look for a research foundation and then results in the real world, fair?

JOHN: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a fantastic piece of advice.

JONATHAN: Dr. Berardi, it’s been an absolute pleasure as always. Thank you so much for joining us today and for the transformative and lifesaving work that you do with so many.

JOHN: Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me. I appreciate always our conversations and I look forward to the next one.

JONATHAN: Thank you much John and listeners, again, our wonderful guest, is Dr. Berardi over at Precision Nutrition. You can learn much more about him and his amazing offerings at precisionnutrition.com and if there’s any company in the world that represents results and research, Precision Nutrition is one of them. So, remember, this week and every week after, eat smarter, exercise smarter and live better. Chat with you soon.