7 Steps, 7 Pounds, 7 Days

Jonathan: Hey, what’s up everybody? Jonathan Bailor and April Perry back with another SANE show. We are going to be rapid fire today, April, because I know you have a bunch of good stuff you want to cover. What is on the agenda for today’s SANE show?

April: Today we’re talking about the slight edge of SANE. This comes from a book called, The Slight Edge, which I love. I love the concept of it, which is that most of the results that we get in life are not because we did something once really well, it’s because there are certain things that we do repeatedly over time that yield results. So when we talk about SANE being long-term health, long-term fitness, having really great health so that we can enjoy our family and live our purpose, I love that.

But at the same time I have questions as far as, what are the things that if we just make little changes over time will make a big difference. Because when you are going SANE, there are so many choices that you can make as far as, do I want to eat the optimal vegetables? Jonathan suggests we sleep seven hours. What about six hours and 45 minutes? There are all kinds of little ways that you can go into the gray, or ways that you can suboptimize your SANity.

So, I have a bunch of different suggestions and things I can ask you about. First I thought it would be great to hear from you as far as your perspective on what are those things that you would feel like would really give people that slight edge that help them take off?

Jonathan: The slightest, and most significant edge that someone could make is gradually increasing their intake of nonstarchy vegetables, no questions asked. Also, because that is where, if you look at the average person in the Western world, where we are starting from – there are very few people who consistently sleep one hour per night, for example. But imagine we had a country that was full of people who consistently slept one hour per night. We would say, “Oh, my goodness. Just getting an additional hour of sleep, you’ve doubled the amount of sleep you’ve gotten now.”

April: (inaudible) 02:11 eight?

Jonathan: That’s going to be a slight edge, but it’s going to make a big difference. The average American eats zero servings of green, leafy vegetables per day. Zero.

April: That is sad. That’s really sad.

Jonathan: It is very sad. So here is the ultimate slight edge. If even just monthly you can figure out a way to add one more serving of green, leafy vegetables into your lifestyle such that after a year you would then be up to 12, that slight edge would so drastically – I personally think that, in and of itself, would end the obesity epidemic.

April: I love that. That’s a really easy one. Can we talk a little bit about sleep for a second? Because this is one of those things that is so hard for me, to get in bed by 10:00 or 10:30 to make sure I get seven hours even, eight would be optimal. I notice I feel better when I do. But where does that fall?

Jonathan: Sleep is going to be like vegetables, where of course, the closer we get to the optimal range, that is going to be extremely positive. But in terms of the slight edge for sleep, figuring out a way to get an additional 15 minutes nightly per month – if we could just say, “Hey, this month I’m going to try to make this change to my lifestyle, I’m going to try to not watch this show, or turn off this screen, so that I’m going to get 15 more minutes of sleep.” I think that’s the biggest thing, April, and you do a really good job of talking about this. Oftentimes it’s really easy to get excited and say, “I’m going to change everything instantly!” And then nothing changes, and then we get discouraged. But when we bite-size these things, if we were to say, “Hey, over the next month, can you figure out a way to go to bed 15 minutes earlier?”

April: I love that. One of the ways I have been doing that is, if I want to watch a TV show, for example, but I’m tired and it’s getting to bedtime, I’ll say, “I’ll just lay down and if I’m still awake in 15 minutes and I want to watch something, then I can.” But I’m always asleep within five and so then I don’t even miss it. So, that’s been helpful.

Jonathan: And for what it’s worth, when it comes to sleep, in terms of the slight edge, I know a challenge a lot of people have is just falling asleep, or sleeping in general. I can totally figure out how to budget seven hours of sleep if need be, if I just can fall asleep. And this is one area where I think a slight edge is going to be here, and in general, really, you have to listen to yourself a little bit. Here is what I mean by that. Almost universally, you get this recommendation which is, the last thing you should ever do is have a television in your room and watch television before you go to sleep. So that is like, “Drink more water!” That is like gospel, generally.

April: Right, but see, now you don’t even have to have a television set in your room, you can have a Smartphone, and Netflix, and there you go, right?

Jonathan: Right. However, like the slight edge, here is a slight edge I have discovered in my life. For me, the easiest way for me to fall asleep, without question, and this includes sleeping medication – it’s more effective than sleeping medication – is turning on a show on Netflix that I have already seen and just letting it play while I close my eyes and listen to it, and then I will fall asleep for five minutes, and then I’ll turn it off, and then I’ll instantly fall asleep. It’s the most effective – but again, I shouldn’t do that. According to the Internet, I should never do that. But it works for me. So I think that is a big slight edge there, is to stop looking outside and look inside, and consistently do that, you’re going to get really good results.

April: I love that. And you know what? An audio book, or even a boring audio book is better. It will totally put you to sleep, and with no light.

Let’s talk about standing for a minute, because I never stood at a desk until I saw that you stood hours and hours every day at your desk. Is that one of those slight edge things that makes a difference? This last week, for example, I have been making a point to stand, I’ve been moving my laptop down to my kitchen counter where I can stand there, I prop up my laptop and stand in my office more. Is that something that, if you do it consistently over time, is going to make a difference, as well?

Jonathan: It absolutely is, and it’s not even a slight edge. I think some of these are different kinds of slight edges. Just to pop up a level, for example, vegetables, sleep, standing – I think we know that there is an ideal state, and when we talk about slight edge we are talking about making gradual steps toward that ideal state. Then I think there is another class, which is, for example, eating this form of vegetable versus that form of vegetable, or eating this form of beef versus that form of beef, and those are the things that are generally more marketed as “tricks,” or “secrets,”, or if you just change eating this nut to eating that nut.

So when we are talking about these things that are more about we know there is an ideal state, like we know we should be sleeping more, we know we should be eating more vegetables, we know that standing is better than sitting. I think the slight edge there that we could have is figuring out ways, either weekly, or every other week, to just tack on either 15 minutes or one serving. So what is one task you generally do seated that takes 15-20 minutes that you can do standing? And then every week just add one of those and then slowly, the slight edge of saying, “I’m going to take small steps weekly,” will make a big difference over the long term.

April: And I like that, because generally if I know, okay, it’s better to stand than to sit, but then if it’s the afternoon, it’s been a long day, and I think, “Well, seriously, is standing up for the next ten minutes really going to make that big of a difference?” It’s one of those questions you ask yourself, because you think, “Oh, this nice seat is really comfy (laughs), I’d feel a little more comfortable while I’m working.” But I think it’s just that question of, okay, of course you can take a rest if you need it, but being able to say, “Hey, but I could stand up for half of this meeting,” or something like that.

Jonathan: And it does add up, certainly, over time. There is a slight edge – this isn’t a financial podcast, but I know you are super familiar with this idea, and it seems like a little bit, but it adds up over time. So, even financial stuff. “I’m just going to buy this $5.00 Starbucks coffee, it’s only $5.00.” But then look it over the course of a year.

My wife’s work is a great example – not to get too sidetracked – but she mentions how very few people at her office bring their lunch to work, so they end up going and getting food. So, going to get food takes 30 minutes minimum, and then it’s downtown Seattle, so it’s $15 minimum. They work five days a week. 15 x 5 is $75 per week, multiply that by 50 weeks in a year – you’re looking at a couple grand per year.

And then you’re looking at a couple of days out of your life, per year, to get that stuff. And while that sounds like, in the moment, per day, it’s not that big of a deal, when you look at it over a year, even that ten minutes, if you could just tack on ten minutes per day, or one serving per day for a year, one serving of vegetables per day for a year is 365 servings of vegetables. That is a lot of vitamins and minerals you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

April: I love that. Now, I want to talk about some of those little ideas you were referring to, things like the nuts. I think you said Macadamia nuts are better than almonds, and raw nuts are better than roasted. Talk about that a little bit.

Jonathan: There are a lot of variations in terms of these slight optimizations within the same food groups, and we could probably cover a couple of quick tips in many different shows, because when it comes to nuts, for example, there is a huge difference between, for instance, a peanut – which is actually not a nut at all, it’s a legume – versus something like an almond, which is a nut, in fact. And then there are almonds that have been soaked in sugar and have been roasted, and then there are raw almonds.

So, the key thing to keep in mind with all of these minor tweaks, some are less minor than others. For example, the difference between eating a lot of honey-roasted peanuts and eating raw Macadamia nuts is actually a big deal, because honey-roasted peanuts have a bunch of artificial nonsense in them, and they are very easy to overeat because of that, whereas raw Macadamia nuts are really, really different. Now, if you’re eating plain roasted almonds versus raw almonds, is that going to be the thing that finally helps you to take control of your diabetes? Probably not, but it will add up over time. Does that help?

April: Some are slighter, right? There are some things that are bigger, like a peanut that’s honey-roasted – don’t even really count that (laughs) as your nuts, right? Okay, I get that.

Now, what about things like oil. Using olive oil – you said coconut oil is a better option because olive oil becomes a trans fat when it is heated? Am I reading this right?

Jonathan: You are. And in some ways this is a great recording for us to do, but it’s hard for me, because as you know, I really stress all the time to focus. Don’t let the small things get in the way of the big things. And especially with the advent of the Internet, I can just list out crazy things that you could worry about like use this cooking oil versus that cooking oil, and then use this brand of that cooking oil versus that brand, but then this expert…

April: And these questions stress us out, and we’re trying to make a decision, so I get it. Sorry to interrupt.

Jonathan: No, it’s okay. But I think here’s the ultimate slight edge. Understand and embrace the fact that, for instance, if you’re eating nuts as your snack instead of eating Doritos, that is a major macro foundational edge that will transform your life. And then we can certainly refine, within that category, but just don’t let it overwhelm you. For example, raw Macadamia nuts would be one of the best nuts you could ever eat because they are incredible sources of mono-unsaturated fats. These are the same fats that make olives so healthy.

And if you think olives and olive oil are a good source of them, macadamia nuts are an even richer source of them. However, is anybody who is struggling with their health and weight loss struggling because they are eating almonds and not Macadamia nuts? Now, some person selling you Macadamia nuts will probably say yes, but the answer is no. So just keep that in mind that all of these things are slight edges, they are fun, but they are not the key thing that we should be focused on.

April: Okay, that’s helpful. When you and Angela were visiting I noticed there were a lot of little things that you did that were different than things I do. For example, we were chopping kale and there are those really bitter kale stalks that are in the middle that most parents will just throw out because their kids don’t want to eat them, and I thought it was interesting that you were snacking on these kale stalks and you said, “Hey, nothing goes to waste.”

And we were making green smoothies and you were putting in the little end of the romaine lettuce and kind of random things, and so I thought that’s really interesting, and I totally eat the kale stalks all the time now because I think, “Oh, nothing goes to waste.” But I just thought that was one of those little things, like how many extra little servings of vegetables are being included just by doing things like that? Does that make sense?

Jonathan: Absolutely. And little things definitely add up over time. For example, if you were to combine, saying, “I’m going to make this slight tweak of instead of eating carrots and green beans as my vegetables, this slight tweak of actually switching to Swiss chard and kale, which I would actually argue is not a slight tweak, that is a big edge.

April: A big one, right.

Jonathan: And going from conventional beef to grass-fed beef. Now, for example, different cuts of grass-fed beef would be something that is actually too slight to make that much of a difference. These things help, but there is an actual term in computer science, and it applies to other areas of engineering which are, I think, helpful, because oftentimes we want to design or engineer our lives, and that is, over-optimization, or optimizing too early.

So, by way of analogy, we’ve all probably tried to write something before, right? If you have taken any sort of writing classes, or had anyone instruct you how to write, they generally say, “Just write. Just get it on paper first, and then edit it later.” Now, editing can take a long time. You can change this word this way, and it’s a slight edge if I use this synonym versus that. But if what you’ve written is garbage, it doesn’t really matter how many slight edges you have, right?

April: I really like that perspective because, yes, at Power Moms we have published two books and I was the project manager, and my arms ached – seriously, I had muscle problems – because I was on my mouse, fixing margins and little things and just going through and doing way too much editing. But you are right, I like the idea of getting all the right things in, and then making little improvements over time.

I do have a question about things like going to the gym. I have been doing the eccentric exercises, I have been trying to up the weight that I am lowering, and I’m a wimp, Jonathan. I’m sorry to say this, I just am. I think, “If Eric were here watching me work out he would be totally laughing,” because I have a really quick release point when I just want to be done. But is there this slight edge of holding on for ten more seconds when you feel like it’s just too hard? Or five more seconds? Or one more second? How does that apply to the weights and exercise?

Jonathan: I’ll answer this question, April, but I think it’s just a definitional problem. So, yes, but I don’t think it’s a slight edge. I think it’s a major edge. This is a perfect example. When weight training, if you’re doing repetitions, and let’s say your goal is to do six repetitions, and the first repetition is pretty easy, the second repetition is – they get harder and harder and harder, right? There is one repetition in weight training that is called the point of failure, and weight training is one of the few areas of life where failure is the desired state. You want to completely fail. Now, one might say it’s a slight edge just to get that one additional repetition, but it’s actually not slight. That’s the whole thing. That’s like saying the slight edge of being pregnant is whether or not the sperm and egg actually meet. They either meet or they don’t. It’s not really a slight edge, it’s binary. So you either…

April: Exhaust your muscles…

Jonathan: Or you don’t. So I guess I just don’t think it’s a slight edge, I think we’ve got these big transformation things in our lives.

April: That’s really helpful to me because I think in my mind, there is a part of your mind that is saying, “This is hurting, I’m tired, I want to be done.” And a part of that mind is saying, “Well, you’ve been lifting weights, yes, this is kind of sore.” You know what I mean? It’s just easy to rationalize and I think what happens is, when I rationalize, I am defeating the purpose of why I’m there, never quite getting to that point. And so I think it is really helpful to recognize, it’s not just about holding on for a couple more seconds, it’s making sure you actually achieve what you came here to do.

Jonathan: That’s exactly right, and I think one of the take-aways from this, at least for me – and I appreciate you for pressing me on these slight edge things – the way my mind works, at least, it seems, it’s either worth thinking about or it’s not. I don’t think there is anything that is either kind of worth thinking about, because we have a lot of stuff going on in our lives. So, if vegetables are worth thinking about, then to me, that is not even a slight edge, that’s a macro edge.

April: Okay.

Jonathan: If reaching muscular failure, or is the brand of cod liver oil you use worth worrying about? I think the major edge is cod liver oil. Cod liver oil is great for you. Now, the brand – is that what is going to make the big difference? I don’t know.

April: Okay, one more question on specifics and then we can do a little final wrap-up. Dark chocolate chips that are SANE, from the SANE store. You have amazingly SANE, awesome food at the SANE store. There is also dark chocolate, or semi-sweet chocolate chips you can buy. Maybe help us understand that. Where, in the quality of our food, where is that slight edge going to help us the most, and where should we be paying attention?

Jonathan: Food, or chocolate, in general, I think, gets back to, it’s not raw Macadamia nut versus un-raw Macadamia nut, it’s sugar isn’t good for you. Refined sugar is never good for you, right? Just like smoking – it’s not a slight edge to go from two cigarettes to one. It’s a big edge, because cigarettes aren’t good for you. So, for example, organic raw cacao nibs, which is what we sell, which is pure cacao, There is no sugar, no additives, no nothing – the ingredients are one thing. One could argue that that is a slight edge, over 90% dark chocolate, which then has only 10% sugar and other nonsense.

But I guess that’s just the definition of a slight edge. We can make these compromises and trade-offs, and a little bit of sugar gets into our diet via this, and then a little bit of sugar gets into our diet via our ketchup, and then a little bit of added sugar, and then pretty soon we’re eating 70 grams of added sugar per day. And then that slight compromise actually turns into an obesity epidemic which is what we have because over time we have had these slight compromises to our food quality.

April: That’s really helpful. I think what this has helped me to realize, is just that there is hope in continuing to improve and refine, because I think what happens is that when you go SANE and you want to continue progressing, you want to continue improving the quality of what you are eating, it is just good to know that you can start improving this quality, working out better, making these decisions to be consistent. That makes me feel excited.

Jonathan: And April, can I give one more analogy? Because I think it is actually going to be really, really helpful. It is not that these refinements aren’t a good idea. For example, Olympic athletes – the only thing that differentiates the gold medal winner from the silver medal winner is a slight edge. It is a minute one one-thousandth of a second. The reason it matters is, the more world class you get, the more all that’s left are slight edges. If you are just getting started, if you are suffering with pre-diabetes and you’re not sleeping at all, you’re looking for the sort of big things you can take care of.

April: Right.

Jonathan: And then the further and further you get, that’s like taking a D paper to a B isn’t done through little slight tweaks. It is done through macro overhauls. But taking an A paper to an A+ – I think we have to look at where we’re starting from. The reason you saw all those nuances Angela and I did is because we’ve been doing this a really long time, and that is all that is left for us. But for people who are just getting started, that is not what they need to be worried about right now.

April: Okay. I think that is really helpful. I always feel comforted, like all right, I can just keep learning, and keep going. But yes, especially when it comes to our children, let’s get the green vegetables in, let’s get the sugar out of the house. Let’s just figure out how to do those things first. Then we can worry more about (inaudible) 22:42 and all the things that are a little bit smaller and aren’t as big of a deal. Does that sound good?

Jonathan: I think that is exactly right, April.

April: So, next action, I have one suggestion which is, just thinking about what you heard here on today’s podcast, or looking at your own place in SANity, if you are just getting started, or if you are more refining your process, just identify one thing that you could do to give yourself that slight edge, whether it is standing 50 more minutes a day, going to be 15 minutes earlier, changing out something you are eating for something that is more optimal. Just make one decision to move forward a little bit closer. Any other suggestions you have?

Jonathan: I think that is fabulous, and I would say the stretch goal is, any time a thought enters your mind in terms of, “Does this thing matter?” I don’t think the question we need to ask ourselves is, “Does it matter?” It probably matters. The question is, “Does it matter more than everything else that I have to take care of?” If the answer is no, you would be better off, for example, getting your vegetables on lock, getting your sleep on lock, getting your stress on lock, having more love in your life. If those are on lock, then you can worry about it.

So the stretch goal is to get into the mental mindset of not asking yourself, “Hey, should I worry about this or not?” Because we could worry about everything. It is, “Should I worry about this instead of everything else that I have to worry about?”

(inaudible-sound malfunctions, finished it the best I could from the sound I could manage to hear, and the context) 24:01