How Thinking Small Makes You Sick (Body Size Bull)

April: Hello everybody, it’s April Perry and Jonathan Bailor, back with another episode of the SANE Show. I’m in a great mood today. Are you in a great mood today Jonathan?

Jonathan: After that introduction it’s a little hard to be—smiles are contagious so if you’re only listening to this and not watching this, I recommend watching it because it’s hard to not smile after watching April’s introduction.

April: I’m sorry. I was a cheerleader in high school. It’s just kind of a natural being super excited. My kids kind of make fun of me; a little bit. Okay. We are so thrilled to have you here on the SANE Show. Why are you laughing?

Jonathan: So we are—WOO!

April: I am so excited. I’m sorry. I get a little giddy when we’re talking about things that matter so much. I’m super excited about it and I love SANE and I have a SANE lunch waiting for me downstairs, so it’s going to be fantastic.

Jonathan: In summary April, how are you feeling right now?

April: Thanks. Actually, I’m kind of down today. It’s kind of a low day for me. No, I’m totally kidding. Okay. Today though, we are actually talking about a questions, which is more on a serious note. So we are not having a funny SANE Show we are actually talking about something more on a serious note. But the reason I am happy about it is because we have a solution to it. We are going to hopefully help you deal with this problem and help you to find the awesome SANE Solution as well. So here is the questions. Why do we think that we need to be so small?

I am going to give a little background to this. In our culture—and I heard Jonathan talking about this on his podcast for years about in our culture, especially with women, we think that we need to be smaller, we need to shrink into the background. We need to just be as small as we possibly can. I have been pondering that question; wondering why it is—that we do that to ourselves. How we think about ourselves. Jonathan, maybe you can add a little more of a prospective on this. Because I don’t know if that happens as much for men. But I know you’ve seen this happen with thousands and thousands of people all over the world.

Jonathan: It definitely doesn’t happen with men and I’ve gone on with plenty of rants—I love this—we are going to have to reel each other in because we only have 20 minutes or so but it’s the—in some ways men have the opposite problem; right? I remember growing up and it was like, Be a man. Lift weights. Eat all this food. Like, who can eat the most barbeque? Big men stand up; yeah. For women it’s the exact opposite and that gets into some really interesting misogynist things going on in our culture.

April: What I love is that you are a champion for really turning this around. Because I think that there are a lot of men who will perpetuate that stereotype, where they demand that the women in their lives are skinny and don’t eat very much, and they have really high expectations because they want some kind of a trophy wife, or they want someone who is small to be their companion. It’s very painful knowing a lot of women in my life who have been in relationships like that. I’m fortunate where I have always had a very healthy relationship with my husband and ever had pressure like that.

For women who do, whether it’s a boyfriend or the guys at school or the styles, whatever it is, it’s painful. It’s something that women are carrying around and it’s what often is motivating these women to starve themselves. Because they want to please society, that man, that person, whatever. Okay, I had an experience, which I thought was interesting, it was a couple of weeks ago, I was actually visiting an old friend of mine and I haven’t seen her for years, long time. When I open the door my first thought was, She looks amazing. Toned, fit, happy, smiling, strong. She look fantastic. She is very active and as we started talking she was sharing how she started going SANE and she has been SANE for a few months but she hadn’t lost any weight. When she said that I was like, Why do you feel like you need to lose weight, you look so great. You look great, that was the first thing I thought about you, when I saw you, is how great you look, how strong, vibrant, and healthy. Why do you think you need to lose weight?

But as I was asking that question, I was thinking about what I would say to myself often, which is, April, why aren’t you losing more weight? How come you aren’t a size 2, or a size 0? Why don’t you look like that fashion model on the magazine? I would say the same thing to myself and so as I was talking to her and I was sharing how SANE has helped me to heal and helped me not to expect myself to be a supermodel. I’m a mom of 4 kids who doesn’t want to go to the gym. Why would I expect that of myself? But I realized some things that I want share in today’s podcast and I’m hoping that those who are listening, specifically women who are struggling and wanting to be smaller, and maybe men who have dealt with, encouraging or not encouraging women to be their best selves, I’m hope that we can decide on how we can move forward in a way that is healthy for all of us.

Jonathan: I also want to give a quick shout out to I think a large population of let’s say enlighten men. For example, these are the men who they see the new cross fit girls and they’re like, That’s awesome. There is a growing population. Especially the younger you look; right? Certainly, if you grew up in the time when women weren’t supposed to leave the house. That’s a much different time than the way we live today. I know for example, my mother was not even permitted in the gym at her university when she went to school.

Whereas now, weight lifting is mandatory for a lot of people regardless of their gender. So I do want to give a quick shout out and I also think we should talk about how it’s very easy to say men are causing this pressure. But sometimes we actually see that—I will say most men might now care as much about women’s shoes or put pressure on women to wear certain shoes, but the women might feel pressure from other women, or from magazines that are perpetuating that. Obviously, there are men who…

April: We are not here to blame men.

Jonathan: Yeah! Obviously there are men who are like, I want small women and I am a misogynist. You need to kick those guys to the curb; completely. But what do we do when it’s not that obvious. Because I think that there are examples where it’s not that obvious but we still feel that pressure.

April: I was talking with a friend of mine who recently went through a divorce and she’s dating—she’s out in the dating world—and she said that she is very concerned about her size because she said that there are so many girls out there that I feel like I’m competing for these guys. As we talked deeper, I don’t think it’s necessarily the men, maybe it is and maybe those are the shallow guys that we got to get out of there. But I was interested to talk with her and say, Do you recognize the value that you have outside of how you look? Do you really understand you value. Because she is an amazing person. She has amazing skills, and abilities, and is friendly, and outgoing, and great with people. She has so many great qualities that she, like many women, like I’ve done myself, put looks as one of the highest priorities.

So I was actually reading a book, Daring Greatly by Brene Brown, which is amazing and she actually said that they put together these surveys asking people, What are the qualities that are described as feminine? And, What are the qualities that described masculinity. Women, if you’re defined as feminine it means that you are smaller—you’re working to be smaller—you spend a lot of time on your physical appearance. You don’t talk about your talents or abilities because you don’t want to seem like you’re boosting and you’re basically shrinking into the background. That’s feminine in our culture. I’m reading that and seeing it in black and white and reading what our culture defines feminine. I mean, that’s not what I want for my daughters. That’s not what I want for myself. I want to be kind and wonderful and I love being a mother and I love my feminine qualities. But being small and tiny and starving myself to get there and then spending all my energy on how my hair and nails and clothes look. That’s ridiculous. Your initial thoughts.

Jonathan: It’s really important for us to tease a part—there is an aspect of that, which is so concentratedly poisonous. And that’s the word, small. Because, for example, saying I want to look healthy and I want to look radiant and vibrant and I want to have an appealing physical appearance is probably a good thing. In fact, what men sometimes experience—but the word small doesn’t come into play so that’s why that word is really unique and interesting. Men who identify with being heterosexual, who do take care of their physical appearance and do go to the gym and do dress well, sometimes people think that they may identify differently than they identify. But even in that context it’s not that people are trying to be small. The pressure to be small, not the pressure to look sort of physically appealing, the pressure to look small is unique to women. Because I really don’t know any man who identifies, in any way, who’s getting any sort of pressure to be like, I wish you were shorter. I mean in fact it’s the opposite; right? Men want to be taller and bigger. So small—I really think we need to focus on that word; small.

April: I do know, one example where I know a mother who had an eating disorder. She was very obsessed with weighing herself and counting calories and things like that. She actually had a teenage son who started weighing himself and was concerned that he was weighing too much as well. I know that this is something that—it’s heartbreaking to talk about it. I know that this young boy was going into the bathroom to weigh himself multiple times a day. The reason why it hurts me so much is because that is what I used to do. I mean, I would think if I could weigh myself every point of the day than I can take the lowest point and I can count that as my worth.

I feel ridiculous saying that now because it has been years since I’ve counting a calorie and I don’t even step on the scale anymore. I don’t do that anymore but for years, Jonathan, that was my life and I think about what I get to do now with my life, the work that I do, the thousands of people I get to work with. I’m publishing books. I’m doing podcast. I have playtime with my kids. I hang out with my parents. My husband and I are madly in love with each other. I have such a great life right now and I’m thinking will this be possible, what I’m living right now, if I were on the scale 12 times a day.

Jonathan: And, April, it wouldn’t. Because a small person does not live that type of life. Because a small person doesn’t publish books. A small person doesn’t speak and try to help others. They fade into the background. We can talk hypothetically about why that is but I think everyone knows—right—that women have been given second shift since the beginning of time. It’s only now that women are starting to be treated as equals. And even now, like the term bossy, you can’t use the term bossy rightfully in grade schools anymore and in many school districts because no one ever calls young boss bossy. They only call young calls bossy because when a man is bossy he’s assertive, and that’s good. And when a women is that way she’s bossy.

So yes, just like there is a human nature to fear that which is different. We’re fighting against millenia of misogyny. We were making progress but interesting to talk about—we don’t have all day to talk about this but one thing that we need to be careful of is—I think we all agree the goal isn’t, be small. The goal is be healthy. It’s really important, and I want to be really careful with the way I say this because it’s easy to mishear it and I mean it with all the love in the world. We want to love ourselves. I would encourage nobody—I don’t want anyone to love that they have diabetes. Right?

Just like no one would, sort of, love that they have cancer. So, it easy and we see the covers of magazines sometimes doing this, where you’ll see an individual who—if you are 5’2” and weigh 270 pounds you’re going to die soon than—like you’re going to miss a bunch of your children’s lives. That’s not good. That doesn’t mean we want you to be small. There is a crazy dichotomy, which is like, you can be not okay with being diabetic and not pursue being small. Which you do is pursue SANEity, which is just be healthy. Just pursue healthy and you can’t weigh 270 pounds at 5’2”, if you’re healthy. It just not possible.

April: Right. One of the things—I have another questions I’ve been asking myself. It’s not a serious questions but then I want to share some happy news and explain how things have changed. I realized that, even in passed podcasts, two months ago I feel like I made this leap. I told you my butterfly project. I’m butterflying. I feel like I finally getting there. I am supper excited about this. But a few months ago when we were recording and I was asking, Okay Jonathan, what’s like a SANE body? Explain to me. What should I look like? Tell me what I should look like. It was kind of ridiculous and I know you were laughing, like, seriously April, SANE body. Okay, let’s talk about it.

But I realized I wasn’t actually asking that questions. I wanted to know at which point in my perceived inadequacy should I feel shame. When should I feel ashamed of myself, Jonathan? Should I feel ashamed of myself if I am at 27% body fat, or if I don’t look great in this bathing suit, or if maybe my arms are bigger than this girl’s arms. Honestly, that was the questions I was asking. At which point have I gone to the point I should feel ashamed. Ashamed to post a picture on social media. Ashamed to stand up in front of a group. Or ashamed to get out there and live my life.

When I read Brene Brown’s book and I recognized that that was the questions I was asking. When do I need to be ashamed of myself? I mean that helped me realize that I was asking a ridiculous question. I will share some happy news in a second but I need feedback on that.

Jonathan: I think that is extremely powerful phrasing, April, I hope everyone rewind that back and write that down because when you phrase it that way and you look at it that way. You put a lightbulb above my head with that one. So I’ve got nothing to add. That was brilliant. Keep going, tell your story.

April: I’ll tell the good story in that by simply understanding that the media, society, my own history was causing me to want to shrink and be small and be ashamed of myself. By just recognizing that that was what was happening I was able to turn it around and be able to say, No. That’s wrong, and call it out. When you have the power to call it out and say, I am strong, and I am healthy, and I am happy, and I am eating assume foods, and I am taking care of my family. I’m setting an incredible example for my children. All things with the grace of God I can live a long healthy life because I am taking care of my body. I can say that with conviction, not so that I can get other people to approve of me but so that I can feel confident in who I am. That changes my life and that overflows into my business, into my marriage, into every aspect of my life.

Just as far as you were talking about these enlightened men, I mean, I have to just give a shout out to Eric who has been amazing to me for this whole time. We went on vacation together, we had our first getaway without the kids, seriously it’s been way too long, I won’t even say how long it has been because it’s been way too long, but we had this getaway and when we landed the first thing we did was we went to Costco because we have this little condo that has a frig and he was so cute. He was like, Alright, April, which vegetables to you want this week. We loaded that cart, I bought 60 eggs, and I bought salmon, and I bought steamed vegetables, and tomatoes, and spinach and—I mean, I had like—people were kind of laughing as I’m checking out about how many vegetables I just purchased but he put that as a priority to me. He made sure we had a little cooler so I could take food with me where ever we went so that I can eat SANEly and I can be happy. He knows, if I can help my wife to eat all the wonder food that she wants, she will be happy this whole vacation. And I was. It was amazing.

I just have to say that when you go SANE, when you learn that you can eat and these foods are going to help you feel strong, you’re going to enjoy your life, you’re going to be stronger, and you’re going to start making a difference. You’re going to have more confidence. I mean, that’s why I am so happy. That’s why I started this show so happy, because this changes my life.

Jonathan: April, the distinction between focusing on being small and being healthy is—if we can just—I don’t know if it’s time for next actions yet. But write on an index card, healthy versus small and carry it around with you because even—that’s awesome of Weight Watchers that you want to put one of the most iconic figures in the world on television and talk about how she’s able to become smaller while eating bread. Eating refined bread isn’t healthy. Everyone agrees on that. So saying, I can be unhealthy and get smaller at the same time is like a one, two punch. You can say anything you want about a diet or lifestyle, which is like, hey, only eat 1400 calories and just eat them from where ever you want, is saying, make smallness your goal and who gives a crap about health because as long as you’re getting smaller you’re succeeding. That’s poison.

April: You’re right. I think you phrased that brilliantly. Alright, so what is our next action?

Jonathan: The next action is—it even goes back to our last show of the Biggest Loser. Like if you say, is it healthy? Not, will it make me smaller, will it make me prettier? Because even that. Prettier according to who? Will it make me thrive? Will it make me healthy? Will it increase my vibrancy? That’s going to be—we’ve all seen these small people who are like all shivery and, you know, it’s not vibrant, and no one thinks that’s sexy. It ridiculous. Go for the health and vibrancy, not smallness.

April: I just have to say I think that’s an awesome next action. I love the question. Will this help me thrive? And that can apply to health, it can apply to really anything in your life. I was thinking about to a journal entry—I’m a journal writer, I have boxes of journals since I was six years old. But one of the journal entries that I wrote was talking about assessing my life. This was about five years ago. I said I feel like my life is going well in so many areas and I listed them out. I said that the one area where I feel like I could never get it is in my physical appearance and in my health. That wasn’t health, I don’t think I wrote health, I think I wrote physical appearance. I can’t lose weight. At that point, I had four children and I was trying to keep up my life and exercise every day and not eat. I was basically saying that I can’t starve myself well enough to be able to be my ideal size.

Just as I’ve been thinking about this and getting ready to record todays show I just realized that that part of my life is now locked into place. I have no doubt I can be SANE for my whole life. I go to bed happy every night. I enjoy eating every day and I just couldn’t imagine my life without this. So, Thank you, Jonathan.

Jonathan: You’re welcome. And thank you for that example because I think the more people—my final point will be, the reason this is so hard and the reason it continues is because there are so many people that are living their lives in the pursuant of smallness. The more we see—I seen plenty. So I exercise at Golds Gym, and I love exercising at Golds Gym. I’ve seen plenty of females at Golds Gym who are just emanating social proof to every other female at Golds Gym that they got these—if we’re able to surround ourselves with people who are pursuing thriving. I mean, that’s the solution. Once we get to a critical mass of people who have moved away from being small and move towards thriving that’s when this problem goes away.

The best way we can do that is be one of those people. You’re doing that and hopefully all of our listeners are doing that. And if not, there’s your stretch goal. Be one of those people. Like Gandhi said—there you go a quote to wrap up the show. April and I both love this guy, his name is Gandhi, you’re probably heard of him and he has a famous quote, which is “Be the chance you want to see in the world.” So maybe there’s your stretch goal right there. If you agree with what we’ve said on the show “Be the chance you want to see in the world.” Does that sound good, April.

April: Sounds awesome. And share it with your friends. Honestly, Jonathan and I can only do so much to get the word out, but you can make the changes in your community, in your homes, in your families, and most of all in your own minds. So go out there and do not be small. Go live your purpose. Have a wonderful day and remember to stay SANE.